Friday, 24 April 2009

Moral Dilemma: My Judgement



So, some very good comments. Glad to see you thinking deeply about it. It's clear from the start of this quest that our three suspects all carry some portion of blame. All three are at fault and yet one must be found guilty. I'll admit, I did spend a lot of time in thought before making my decision.
It would be very easy to be lenient on Quint, seeing how his fault in this matter was largely passive just as it would very easy to be harsh on Karlat, seeing as how he 'planned' this mass murder. And then Belial as a wildcard. If all three men carry some blame then I realised I would have to look deeper.
Firstly, responsibility.
Is Quint responsible for this whole mess for turning a blind eye to his brother's attempts to summon Belial and seek out undeath? We are led to assume Karlat tried a few times unsuccessfully to summon Belial before managing it and thus Quint had plenty of time to wise up.
Likewise, if Karlat hadn't summoned Belial then this whole mess could have been avoided...
But if Belial hadn't lied?

Well, my next stop was to consider motives. In this sorry saga it becomes clear that Karlat acted out an instinct to protect the people of Charwood. Maybe choosing to do so 'at any cost' was the wrong choice, but ultimately he intended no harm.
Quint acted out of the instinct to bond with his brother and the children of Charwood. Maybe he hoped Karlat had changed his ways and was hoping to spread goodwill throughout the town?
Belial on the other hand acted purely out of malicious intent. He was instrumental in causing these events to transpire and indeed events played out exactly as he planned. There can be no doubt as to his intentions.

Which brings us back to a few comments made by you fine chaps.
Ches asked whether the stone is to blame for being heavy and the answer is of course no. But is Belial culpable for being evil? In my eyes, yes. either Ches or K also mentioned fallen angels and those who have played the game will remember that awful feeling of watching the paladin Lady Aribeth fall from grace and walk the path of evil. Sure it might be in Belial's nature to be evil, and such behaviour is to be expected of him but he still has free will. Just as it was in Aribeth's nature to fight for the greater good, so too was she capable of unspeakable evil and just because Belial is inherently evil does not mean that he could not have acted good, or even neutral in this situation. No one forced his hand, he was not misled as Karlat and Quint were.

After taking all this into account I placed the blame firmly at the feet of Belial. Although there exists a small cabal of gamers who blame Quint for allowing Karlat to summon Belial and an even larger slice of the nwn community who blame Karlat for summoning Belial in the first place I personally think Belial is the one most to blame. It was he who directly planned this crime, it was he who pitted brother against brother and he who forced one of Lathander's own servants against him. Karlat and Quint were unwitting pawns in his game. sure they should both have known better and are not blameless by a long shot and maybe the road to hell is paved with good intentions but ultimately I find them both guilty of stupidity and ignorance where Belial is guilty of masterminding this whole affair. He is naught but an opportunist, taking advantage of the naivety of lesser beings to bend them to his own will and thus I condemn him.

Do bear in mind though that this is merely my interpretation and does not lesson the votes against Karlat thus far expressed by my fellow judges. ;)

Thanks for the comments. That sure was fun.

16 comments:

  1. hihi sweet. :) *claps*

    Bravo, that was a fine pleading. You have convinced me. Aye Belial is the mastermind behind all this. Well as an Archdevil and known as the Lord of Lies and Pain & Suffering he does indeed planned all this. And i bet he enjoyed the killing greatly ;)

    For those who are interested about this Archdemon and his malicious intentions here are some links: (And yes i know this is just fantasy/mythology ;) )

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belial_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belial

    "Belial teaches his followers to revel in the pleasures and pains of the flesh. He delights in manipulating mortals. He also enjoys killing, craving the sensation of hot blood splashing against his body. That said, he is not a fool, and knows when to cut and run."

    "...Belial is also the demon of lies and guilt. As a Prince of Hell, he commands 80 Legions of Demons and is specifically the Prince reigning over the Northern Reaches of Hell. His General and Bride Avaira is the general of these legions and of the Harposh Army. He controls the element of earth and reigns over the Earth demons."

    " 'But for corruption thou hast made Belial, an angel of hostility. All his dominions are in darkness, and his purpose is to bring about wickedness and guilt. All the spirits that are associated with him are but angels of Sweed, a type of drug.' "


    So be it.

    Ches.

    That indeed was fun :)

    ReplyDelete
  2. P.S: Oh i forgot another one to blame:

    Lathander! Why? you may ask?

    Because this stupid god is too dumb to see the Truth behind all this and codemns a whole town for the evil doings of tow mortal beings and the schemes of a Greater demon behind it. What kind of dumb god is this? I could also put my vote on him. The poor commoners that have to suffer a hundreds years as ghosts.... Shame on You Lathander! :P

    Ches.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Yeah Lathander is a bit of a bell-end. ¬¬ But it's an interesting quest either way and it really does get you thinking. I mean, Lathander refused to judge because he considered himself biased... but which way was he biased? Against the now-undead Karlat? Or against his own cleric for essentially failing to do his sworn duty? It really is an enormous bag of worms.

    Regarding Belial. He's also well known among nubs who own ouija boards who seem to think they can summon him. (Fail!). Interestingly I believe the single player campaign refers to him as Demon Lord Belial (When he's clearly a devil within DnD appearing as a pit fiend in the game? Technically this makes him Lawful Evil and I only referred to him as chaotic due to the demon reference in game). :P Confusing huh?

    Interesting that I won you over. I half expected you to stick with your initial judgement on Karlat. :)

    ReplyDelete
  4. I am not half as Think as You stubborn I am ;))

    Other than that you are right: I never liked Lathander much. He is like a narrowminded version of the Greek God Apollo. Though much more gay. *yuck* Though he offers alot RP potential for paladins, clerics and other undead hunters... like Vampire hunters and so on...I liked his appearances/influence in the oldschool Ravenloft books. :)

    Concerning Belial: In christian mythology he is an Archdevil. In the DnD Fantasy setting he is an Archdemon. But such a distinction only in the Dnd world is present. I never heard of a difference between demons/devils in christian mythology. *shrugs*

    Ches.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Hey dudes!

    Missed the first post by a couple days. :X

    Anyway, great posts and great comments... but there are a couple things I'm unclear about.

    You said Quint was *coerced* into helping kill the children. Do you mean he was actually forced to actually murder them? or do you just mean he was tricked into gathering them up?

    Also, what, exactly, is the charge here? I realize this should seem clear, but it makes a huge difference. (You'll see.)

    I'll assume that Quint was tricked and that, more importantly, we're investigating who is at fault for the murder of every child in the town.

    We'll just dismiss Quint as insignificant since he didn't really have the motive nor did he put the knife to anyone. He is an accomplice, but he's hardly guilty.

    Anyway, suppose Hypothetical John lost all his money in the stock market. I say, "Hey, Hypothetical John, you should kill yourself. That would solve all your problems!" Hypothetical John kills himself. I am not guilty of suicide. Yes, I am responsible, what I did was wrong, but I am not guilty of suicide.

    I realize this is somewhat weak, but part of Belial's argument seems to be that he thought Karlot would distrust him. Frankly, I think he was right; although, this doesn't necessarily free him of culpability.

    Ultimately, what it comes down to is Karlot either *blindly trusted an evil entity* for the purpose of a power grab, OR he, in an attempt to err on the side of caution, *chose to kill all the children knowing that it would be worth the loss*.

    If the latter is true, he's dead guilty. And I believe it is, considering he his apparent knowledge of the occult.

    However, if the former is true, and he believed without a shadow of a doubt that the children would be resurrected, he is still responsible. While the devil did offer the suggestion of killing the children, he is guilty of *breaking his word* and not reviving them, not of their murder. He did not even "mastermind" the crime, it seems. He *suggested* it. Karlot was the one who planned it out, Karlot was the one who lied to his brother to get his help, and Karlot was the one who ran the children through. He is guilty of murder, regardless of whether Belial kept his word or not.

    I think Karlot is more to blame than Belial; though, Belial should still be held responsible for what he did. I also believe that Karlot knew there was a chance that the children would not be resurrected, and I believe he chose to gamble on their lives.

    (If it's not clear, I haven't finished the original campaign... just HotU. >.>)

    Also, there was a Belial in Devil May Cry 4, but it was mistranslated as Berial... which I think is an awesome name.

    ReplyDelete
  6. You got it backwards I think Ches. In Christianity he's a demon, in DnD he's a Baatezu, an archdevil (The demons are Tanar'ri mostly). Neverwinter wrongly paints him as a demon. I think the difference in Christianity is that there are many demons, but only one Devil (Satan himself, he who was once Lucifer). In DnD the difference is that Demons are Chaotic and inhabit the Abyss, Devils are Lawful and inhabit the Nine Hells of Baator. Both are locked in the eternal Blood War. I like to think I did the difference justice in In the Blood with my depiction of the Chaotic Demon Prince Yulg Vs the Lawful Evil plotting of his arch nemesis, Acrophiles.

    Nick. It seems unclear about whether Quint did any murdering. He's gone completely mad from guilt by the time we arrive on the scene. He definitely gathered up the children and his section of Castle Jarleg is the one containing blood, indeed it is smeared across the holy statue of Lathander, so either Karlat killed the children in Quint's presence (in which case Quint is involved passively by refusing to stop him) or Quint reluctantly joined in after hearing from Karlat that they would be resurrected.
    The charge itself is also unclear. We're appointed Judge and sent to learn of the crime and discover who is truly to blame. Thus I make my judgement based on the evidence presented in game. I presented all that I saw in my previous post. (Why is judgement showing as a typo? O_O)
    Dismissing Quint as innocent is an easy thing to do but his duty as a cleric of Lathander is to prevent exactly this type of thing from happening. To swear to his God to destroy all undead, then let his brother murder an entire town of children to achieve undeath... under his very nose?! Quint is far from blameless and he knows it.
    If you told Hypothetical John to kill himself you're essentially an accomplice to suicide (which is a crime). :P But that's going too far out I think. You underestimate Quint's passive involvement. If you told Hypothetical John to kill himself and you worked on a phone line where your job is talk people out of suicide, now you're in Quint's position.

    "I realize this is somewhat weak, but part of Belial's argument seems to be that he thought Karlot would distrust him. Frankly, I think he was right; although, this doesn't necessarily free him of culpability."

    I agree exactly. Belial in the 'real world' of Christian Mythology is known as the Lord of Lies and in DnD terms one should mistrust any demon, knowing full well they are inherently evil and deceitful, but yes, this does not free him from culpability which is a big point in my choosing of him.

    "Ultimately, what it comes down to is Karlot either *blindly trusted an evil entity* for the purpose of a power grab, OR he, in an attempt to err on the side of caution, *chose to kill all the children knowing that it would be worth the loss*."

    That is also exactly how I see it. Karlat is either massively stupid or unbelievably reckless. Either way, he is the most guilty of the two brothers, but I still find Belial moreso for intentionally misleading him and thus taking advantage of said stupidity/recklessness.

    I like your point about Karlat gambling him. This is the most compelling evidence I've heard so far for finding Karlat guilty. Not enough to change my mind, but as I said, the judgement is very much a personal one and we all have different perceptions. I can totally understand your case for Karlat.

    You should finish the OC. I liked Shadows of Undrentide massively but the OC is sooo huge that it just screams to be completed. Hotu I never finished. It just seems so unbalanced at the start and so... well boring if I'm frank. I know it gets a lot better later but there's a lot of boring shit to go through first. My bro also has NWN 2 which I plan on playing at some point and if Bioware ever get their finger out of their arse and accept Paypal I want the NWN premium modules.

    Also. You win comment of the month. That was epic. :D

    ReplyDelete
  7. I like your point about Karlat gambling him.

    Should read

    I like your point about Karlat gambling with their lives.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I sooo love this discussion! ^^ *jumps and claps like an anime girly*

    Ches.

    P.S: hmm i should recap all your pros and contras in an excel sheet so we can evaluate the several crimes :)

    Quint: stupidity and/or blindly loyal to his bro.

    Karlat: to mess around with an archdemon and BELIEFING him OR gambling with the lives of innocent beings. powerhungry and massmurder. (Actually who exactly commited the murder of the children? K.? Q? or B himself?)

    Belial: deceiving mortals and planning mischief. (commiting the kills?) We only can assume B. planned all this but demons are known for being great plotters. Belial is the ruler of a layer of Hell! If he does not know how to manipulate mortals no one knows ;) )

    Soo all in all it depends on how much you put weight on the several crimes. For me i am see-sawed between K. and B. but after rethinking it i would blame K. No one is forced to make a deal with the devil except he would chose his own life for the sake of others. That leads me to another question? Why didn't Karlat chose his own life and let put his brother in charge? That would be an acceptable deal with a devil and even Lathander would be impressed ;) (remember the movie Constantine?) But Karlat was just a selfish prick like K.already stated.

    Belial on the other hand should rot in hell for his evil deeds but wait he already does! O_O :D

    ReplyDelete
  9. @Charon: Yep i screwed it up. Though i found the following in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    Belial
    tt=77

    Found frequently as a personal name in the Vulgate and various English translations of the Bible, is commonly used as a synonym of Satan, or the personification of evil.

    This sense is derived from 2 Corinthians 6:15, where Belial (or Beliar) as prince of darkness is contrasted with Christ, the light. It is clear in the Vulgate and Douay translations of 1 Kings 21:10 and 13, where the same Hebrew is rendered once as Belial and twice as "the devil".

    In the other instances, too, the translators understood it as a name for the prince of evil, and so it has passed into English. Milton, however, distinguishes Belial from Satan, regarding him as the demon of impurity. In the Hebrew Bible, nevertheless, the word is not a proper name, but a common noun usually signifying "wickedness" or "extreme wickedness". Thus, Moore renders "sons of Belial" as "vile scoundrels" (Judges 19:22); most prefer "worthless fellows".

    In some cases belial seems to mean "destruction", "ruin"; thus in Psalm 12:9, the word is parallel to the thought of utter destruction and seems to mean the same. In Psalm 18:5, it is parallel to "death" and "Sheol"; some understand it as "destruction", Cheyne as "the abyss".

    The etymology of the word is doubtful; it is usually taken to be a compound meaning "worthlessness." Cheyne suggest an alternate that means "that from which no one comes up", namely the abyss, Sheol. St. Jerome's etymology "without yoke", which he has even inserted as a gloss in the text of Judges 19:22, is contrary to Hebrew philology.

    Belial, from meaning wickedness or Sheol, could develop into a name for the prince of evil or of darkness; and as such was widely used at the beginning of our era. Under the names Beliar, Berial, he plays a very important rĂ´le in apocryphal literature, in the "Ascension of Isaias", the "Sibylline Oracles", and the "Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs". He is the prince of this world and will come as Antichrist; his name is sometimes given also to Nero, returning as Antichrist.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Still going strong. :P
    Karlat we know murdered some if not all of the children and he did so at Quint's holy shrine to Lathander, in Quint's presence. The townsfolk suggest Quint did some killing, Quint is amd with grief and barely talks sense. Karlat has simply forgotten (it has been centuries after all and that's partly the tragedy and why simply allowing the village to be at peace is the option that gives treasure). So it is indeterminate how deeply Quint was involved. Belial did no killing, this we know.
    Furthermore, there was no deal. Karlat summoned Belial to seek knowledge of the Baelnorn ritual. Belial simply lied as to what was involved.
    And yes, Belial is one of the nine rulers of Hell which is another reason for blaming him. Can Karlat and Quint really be blamed for being misled by one of the best?

    It is also true that blaming Belial simply sends him back to Hell, or due to his misrepresentation as a demon in NWN, to the Abyss, effectively letting him off. But the alternatives are to blame one of the brothers, or blame Belial and seal him in there, which also seals in both brothers, the innocent townsfolk and the poor guardian spirit. That really isn't justice.
    Also, as the 'hero' points out when the choice to blame Belial is taken and he is sent back to the Abyss.
    "We must all be free, be it to do good, or evil."

    Which is a fair point. Imagine if the good-evil lines were reversed and an evil god such as Erythnul had imprisoned a bunch of evil folk for performing good deeds.
    Well, it gets a bit complicated from there so let's not. ¬¬ My time is up for tonight.

    As for Belial in Jewish/Christian mythology, sadly the Bibles are so badly mistranslated and contradictory that it becomes difficult to separate some demons. Some times Belial seems to be the Devil and thus Satan, sometimes they are different people. I think the only mythology more contradictory is Egyptian which was so messed up by having two parallel religions combine into one newer religion that people are still figuring it all out. I suppose the same could be held true for Christianity branching off from Judaism, having it's holy book translated through multiple tongues and then branching out in various sub-religions. At least Norse and Greek were fairly consistent. (And Hinduism) ^^

    ReplyDelete
  11. Thanks for clearing this up Charon :)

    If i ever gonna play the OC again (which i will do eventually) i am gonna blame Karlat :P

    Because i hate violence against innocent beings. And Karlat committed the killing. Furthermore it would not satisfying my feeling of justice to blame an Archdevil for being evil because that is what they are. (being evil rotten to the core). I still think we mortals are the players here on Earth and all those immortals are made to give us options and chances. So we are the real protagonists and the Angels, demons and so on are like the "Stage Setup" set up by a weird fun loving God.

    Well just my two cents on this matter.

    Ches.

    P.S: Keep up with posts like that. This keeps us on the Edge ;)

    ReplyDelete
  12. Ooooh i want to add some links to videos on Youtube from a brilliant guy called "QualiaSoup" talking about concepts like "Hell: An excessive punishment". I never heard such convincing arguments towards Atheism before.

    Hell an excessive punishment:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaL7CkQaQpU&feature=PlayList&p=A40DC16A77414DDF&index=8

    BTW checkout his other videos too. (about Evolution/Creationism, The Faith Cake, In the beginning God created Injustice...

    In the beginning God created Injustice:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQBDGMj2h-c&feature=related

    The Faith Cake:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlaCq3dKvvI&feature=PlayList&p=A40DC16A77414DDF&index=7

    One video made me almost cry: The Instruction Manual of Life:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=kAIpRRZvnJg&fmt=18

    heartmoving.

    This guy blewed my mind.

    Ches.

    ReplyDelete
  13. (I consider contemporary Atheism a religion.)

    ReplyDelete
  14. lol. Yeah, you might be right Nick. But it is fun to see how irrational most religions are. And i prefer to have arguments against them, if someone addresses me why i am an agnostic. Well, actually i am not a real atheist. I just dislike a wrathful christian god which condemns us all to easily. On the other hand i also cannot understand why no one stops us destroying our planet. All in all only a very ignorant god or None god is the answer to this question. Well i really cannot make up my mind. So i often change my oppinion depending on my moods.

    Ches.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Bloody Hell...never leave a blog and try and understand it when you come back :P

    I'm going to need a V before I even try and wade through this, and I don't think I'd be able to add anything of value anyway...great discussion though (what I understood of it :P)

    K

    ReplyDelete
  16. Heh heh. Yeah, definitely one of my more successful discussions.

    ReplyDelete